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The Collapse of Trump’s Operation Epic Fury
This is going to be an absolute case study of how hubris and ego and lack of foresight and mixed messaging leads you further and further into a terrible, terrible place. And I think that’s where Trump is right now. >> It’s just so difficult to explain why he’s doing something that is so clearly not in the US national interest. >> He’s provoked a conflict over which now nobody seems to have much control, least of all him. This is probably the most dangerous moment we’ve had for many,
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many decades. >> Do you think this is potential world war territory? I think we might be in it. >> Welcome to the rest of this politics with me, Rory Stewart, >> and with me, Alistister Campbell. So, Rory, we’re going to talk about Iran inevitably. We’ve had the big buildup to Donald Trump saying he’s going to be demolishing Iran’s energy infrastructure and we’ve then had the big seeming climown based upon his claim that they’d had these productive talks with Iran.
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We’ll talk about that. We’ll talk about the developments since then and we’ll most importantly try to work out why on earth this is happening and why on earth it’s in the mess that it’s in. We’re also going to talk about assisted dying, which I suspect may lead us to a an agreeable disagreement. But if some of these peers were in the room, Rory, it would not be agreeable. >> No, you’d be pretty cross them. >> I’d be very very across, but we’ll talk
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about that. >> Let’s start with Donald Trump. So, few hours ago, we were stuck in a situation in which Donald Trump had announced that unless the Straits of Hormuz was open within 48 hours, he would attack the critical infrastructure of Iran. In other words, he’d attack the electricity infrastructure, presumably the water infrastructure. And it felt as though he’d completely backed himself into a corner. >> And by the way, that would be a war crime. >> And it would be a war crime because if
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you take out the electricity, water, you’re taking out the hospitals, you’re taking out all the stuff that supports vent, >> all the stuff that Putin has done in Ukraine. >> Absolutely. As Shashana said, why on earth does he do this? It’d be like saying to a classroom of three-year-olds, don’t you do that cuz if you do that, I’m going to get very cross. And of course, in this particular case, the Iranian regime, it seemed inevitable that they would continue to stop straight form. He would then launch
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his attacks on critical infrastructure. They had signaled long in advance that if he attacked the critical infrastructure on >> they’d go for the desalination plants. >> They’d go for desalination plants in the Gulf and desalination plants in the Gulf. The majority of Riyad’s water comes from turning salt water into drinking water. So effectively you would create uh a humanitarian crisis throughout the Gulf. Those places really struggle to function without desalination plants.
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>> You would then have refugee flows. So there would be people moving out of the Gulf to try to get to somewhere where they can actually get any drinking water. And I was talking to someone in Saudi this morning who was talking about the fact that he’d bought a huge amount of water. He’s got his car full of petrol. You would have refugee flows out of Iran because as soon as you start hitting the water and electricity infrastructure, you’re pushed out of Iran and that will go into Turkey. That
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could go into Afghanistan. That could spill over from Turkey into the broader region. And we haven’t even begun to think through what that means for Gulf, what that could mean for Jordan, what that could mean for Iraq, what that could mean for Lebanon, what that could mean for Israel. However, you have just come to us with a breaking news that rather oddly, rather than having blocked himself into a corner in the way that one might assume, said his ego allows no way of climbing down. He has, and this
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was a tip off I got a few hours ago from an official on the Gulf who said, “Don’t worry, Trump’s not going to follow through on his threat.” And that is probably because somebody has explained to him the size of the hole that he’s now in. And of course, what he’s been trying to do probably since day one is to think about how do I turn this into a version of Venezuela. And this is not us being very clever cuz lots of people said it, but we said it on day one. Iran is not Venezuela. Iran is not Iraq. Iran
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is not Libya. Iran is bigger, stronger. And the sense you get is that they’ve been planning for this a lot longer than Trump has. We might like to think that for 47 years the Americans have thought about how do we do this? But actually they haven’t. They’ve been they’ve been doing what Karim Sajapore when he was brilliant on our special question time we did last week and he was basically saying what the world has been doing is containing. Iran has been contained. It’s not been great. It’s not been
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perfect for the Iranian people but that’s been what they what they’ve been doing. What Trump has done with Netanyahu’s support and active encouragement because Netanyahu has wanted to do this forever is he’s provoked a conflict over which now nobody seems to have much control least of all him. So for him to come out as he did when he came out and said that thing if you do that I’m going to go after all your energy infrastructure. It shows you two things. There wasn’t even any debate
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so far as I could see about well would that be again would that be a war crime? do you really want to commit war crimes and signal that’s what you’re doing? And then what do the Iranians say? If you do that, then we know where those desalination plants are, we can literally make things even worse for you regarding your oil price with the production that’s going on. Look, we could be wrong, but I think this is going to be an absolute case study through history of how hubris and ego and lack of foresight and mixed
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messaging leads you further and further into a terrible, terrible place. And I think that’s where Trump is right now. This episode is brought to you by Fuse Energy. >> Energy policy rarely stays in Westminster for long. usually arise for the bill. And from the 1st of April, 75% of renewables obligation costs will come off electricity bills and move into general taxation. >> So if bills are meant to fall from April, why would anyone bother switching? >> Because policy sets the floor. The
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using the code politics and save around £200 on your bills. >> Visit fuseenergy.com for full details and terms and conditions. One of the questions that I was getting out of people I was talking to in the Gulf today is they are really struggling to understand why Trump did it. They can completely understand why Israel wanted to do it. Their view is that the Israeli strategy and adittly this is a pretty anti-Israeli position but this is their view. Their view is Netanyahu who thinks he wins every which way. either it just
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establishes Israel as the massive regional hedgeman who everyone has to be scared of or you’re forced to become an Israeli ally stroke Israeli vessel who just does what Israel says. So that’s a strategy which says we keep attacking Iran, we make things so uncomfortable that the United Arab Emirates have no choice. Whatever they think of us, they just have to team up with us to protect themselves against Iran. Or you just destroy all the economies of the Gulf. And that doesn’t worry him either
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because there are people in Netanyahu circle who say these Gulf countries have too much influence in Washington. They’ve been a countervailing force against Israel’s interests. It actually helps us if these countries are suffering economic damage. So that’s the Israeli. Their question is why on earth does Trump go along with it? And they’re talking, as you can imagine, to the most senior people, right? So they’re talking to Jared Kushner. They’re talking to Steve Wickoff. They’re talking to Marco
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Rubio. They’re talking to JD Vance. And all of those people are saying, “We have no idea. We’re all telling him to stop and he won’t stop.” So they’re all beginning to get into conspiracy theories. Very reminiscent of when you’re looking at what on earth he thinks he’s doing with Putin and Russia. People eventually end up saying, “Has Putin got something over him that he’s doing this?” And now with this, of course, the conspiracy theories in the Gulf are all, “Has Israel got something
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over him? Why on earth is he?” And the reason people ask these questions, I tend not to go down conspiracy. It’s just so difficult to explain why he’s doing something that is so clearly not in the US national interest. >> Well, I think you and I agree that there are no real winners out of this, but in so far as you might think you could say, well, they’ve won, they’ve lost. The two that I think could say they’re winning are Russia and Israel. Now, they might be the two countries that most of our
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listeners would not really like to be winning at the moment. Israel because of what they’ve done in Gaza, Russia for what they’re doing in in Ukraine. You said, was it a couple of years ago, I think, you first outed the idea that maybe we have to face the tr the fact or a horrible truth that Trump is actually genuinely on Putin’s side. Is it impossible that the whole purpose of this has actually been to get Russian oil supplies flowing again? Just think about it. They go after Iran. Iran is a
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major oil supplier whose supplies suddenly it’s a lot harder to get out. And Iran then reacts. This is maybe giving Trump too much credit given we actually say he doesn’t think through the next step. Iran then does what it does in the Straits of Hormuz. And the oil price goes rocketing. Putin suddenly is shipping out oil left, right, and center. And Trump, this is incredible when you think about it. It wasn’t even seen as a big thing. He lifts sanctions on Russia and Bellarus and Iran. What he
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can do with the Putin thing, the reason why it wasn’t screaming headlines is because he can argue this isn’t about a sort of geopolitical gift to my friend Vladimir. It’s a it’s a case of market stabilization to keep the world economy going. >> It’s completely amazing. So I I’m not conspiracy. I I’m not buying into your full conspiracy, but I think where you’re completely right is the reason why we’re tempted to it is >> trying to find a reason. >> Well, there’s no doubt he’s helping
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Russia. Whether his intention is to help Russia, but you’re completely right. Russia is getting billions of dollars of extra revenue, which it desperately needs to keep its war machine going. >> The number one defense of Trump on Ukraine was that he was putting pressure on the oil price, keeping down the It’s a double whammy. sanctions lifted and the oil price has shot up above $100 a barrel. So Russia’s making out like a bandit. And the defense of Trump was look, you can say what you want. Okay,
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he’s not supporting the Ukraine war financially, but at least unlike those curved Europeans, you know, he’s putting pressure on Russian oil and that’s what really matters for. So that’s all gone out the window. In addition, he is spending like a drunken sailor the Patriot missiles and all the defense equipment that could be used to protect Ukraine against Russia. Now, President Zilinski is getting a lot of credit for turning up in the Gulf saying, “I’m providing Ukrainian defense and
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systems.” >> And Trump’s very dismissive of it. >> Yeah. I would also be very cautious of that because in fact, the problem is Ukraine is going to be in a much much weaker position and it needs those systems domestically. Russia will be stronger. There will be fewer of these systems around and that puts it in a much more vulnerable position. >> But that’s the other means by which it helps Russia. Yeah. I mean Russia is the clear winner out of this and it’s almost
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you know it is always worth asking that question when these big international crisis happen who is benefiting >> then let’s look at who’s really losing okay so the first thing of course is the Iranian people >> and we can’t take our minds off what’s actually happening when thousands of missiles have fired into a country lots of people are being killed we know about girls schools and a lot of infrastructure has been affected we’ve had massive oil refineries going up in
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smoke the revenue of the government collapsing and all that spills through into ordinary lives. But I don’t think people have described fully or tried to bring to life what this actually means for the Gulf countries. We we’ve talked quite a lot about Dubai because that’s easy to get our head around. I think we’ve talked about the fact that if you’re looking to make an investment in a new data center, let’s say you’re a European or American and you were about to make it in the United Arab Emirates,
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are you going to do it now? If you think missiles are flying in and the desalination plant could be switched off. If you’re buying property in Dubai and you’re about to live in a 50story building and you think the elevators aren’t going to work and the water supply or >> if you’re one of the tech companies in the United States, they’re the ones that are going to have to invest all this money in energy. And if your energy costs are rising at the rate they’ve risen in the last month, then they’re
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going to be hit by this as well. And I think what we’re seeing is all are all these consequences coming through that I I’m absolutely convinced Trump and his people didn’t even think of or if they did think of it, there’s been very little sign of it. >> Well, Kata, their daily revenue is dropping by billions of dollars a day because they basically can’t export any LG. Their costs are going up by hundreds of millions a day because of the defense deployments they have to make, the
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missiles they’re firing, the people they need to mobilize, all the contingency plans they need to >> and it’ll take years to rebuild that thing that was said last year last year. >> Absolutely. It’s going to take 5 years to rebuild part of their gas facility. That is a permanent impact on these economies. Maybe a 105 year impact. What you’ll see is trillions of dollars of investment that might have gone to the US from the Gulf will no longer go. But it’ll also affect Europe. Anybody who
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has been relying on partnerships with Gulf money will find that they’re going to have to draw the money back into the Gulf to rebuild their own systems. >> They’re going to be holding back on capital investment. They’re going to be freezing new decisions. That’s also going to have an effect on international development. So places like Katar were some of the most generous contributors to different types of humanitarian emergencies to some of the big uh international NOS’s but also the UN
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agencies. All these people, a loss of money from the Gulf has helped keep the international system going. That money is now going to be under strain. >> No, listen, it it’s just on every level. This is a catastrophe. And then the other thing you haven’t mentioned is just the economy for all of us. So like you’ve got Karma Monday chairing a Cobra meeting which will obviously go into all this stuff that we’re talking about, but actually the main focus is going to be the Bank
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of England and Rachel Reeves the chancellor explaining the potential impacts on our economy. Every government in the world is having that. This is what makes it so absurd that Trump having launched this with Netanyahu and basically said you’re all a bunch of cows because you didn’t want to be part of it now seeing the consequences of which these other European and other leaders warned him would happen and now saying it’s up to you guys to to to fix it. So the straits of Hormuz you know
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you lot have got to come in now and defend the straits of Hormuz. It’s not it’s not down to me. One thing I think that we have to be very very clear on is the UK must not in under any conditions get drawn into this war because you will end up if you’re Kama carrying the can for Israel and the US committing war crimes doing completely illegal unjustifiable things if you become a formal part of this coalition in any way in any way you will carry the can. I mean, imagine what it would be like.
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Let’s say uh Kama got out of bed in the morning and thought, well, maybe I’m going to join a nice, you know, naval flatillaa which is going to help escort tankers through the straits form. And then you discover that actually it’s not as easy as it was in the 1980s cuz these cheap drones and these speedboats can come up and they blow up one of your naval vessels and you then feel that you have to join Israel and the US in strikes against Iran. And then your partners, your coalition partners
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announced they’re going to take out all the power infrastructure and the water infrastructure, commit a war crime, right? You’re part of that. Now, >> what about if you had a situation just a couple of days ago where, and I don’t know the background to this, but two people, one of them I reign, were arrested trying to get into the Fazlane nuclear base. What about, you see, this is one of the things we said last week, this is the way that asymmetric warfare works. What about a kind of what will be
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seen as a terror hit on the UK mainland? What about if one of those bombs had landed at Diego Garcia? What happened if one of those missiles did hit RAF Acriteria in Cyprus? >> Well, the answer is you have to look at how the Gulf is dealing with this. And they’re in a much more serious situation than we are. >> I mean, they they quite literally have their citizens being killed, their central infrastructure being wiped out, their economy being wiped out, >> and their conclusion is
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>> we do not get drawn into this. >> Yeah, >> we’re not doing. And why? Because they’ll be asking two questions. Number one, what can you really do which the US and Israel isn’t actually doing? So let let’s say there were some attack in Britain, terrorist attack in Britain or one of our bases were hit and we decided to join this. How exactly would the UK joining this bring that to a conclusion more quickly? What could we do the US and Israel? Secondly, are you actually
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increasing the threat to your citizens? Okay, so let’s say some people were killed in an attack in the UK. How many people are you prepared to get killed in an attempt to respond to that? >> Well, they’re all big calls. They’re all very difficult calls. >> But the Gulf is making those calls in a really tough way. So, the Gulf, for example, has signaled Katar will not allow the US to use its airspace or its bases at all. >> They can only be used for logistical purposes. Saudi claims it’s not allowing
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airspace to be used, but airspace probably is being used. >> UAE appears to be providing more support, but all of them are being attacked. So, the UAE, 352 ballistic missiles, 15 cruise missiles, and almost 2,000 drones. That’s just the UAE. Yeah. And so, Right. No, you’re right. And but but all I’m saying is I think these are really, really tough calls. One of the pieces that really struck home this week, a guy called Phil Clay in the New York Times said he was introduced him as
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a novelist and a Marine Corps veteran of the Iraq War. You’ll like his first paragraph, Rory, even if I didn’t that, but I’m going to read it anyway. I have plenty of complaints about the war I served in. Two decades ago, the Iraq war was illconceived, hubristic, and marred by poor leadership at the highest level, but I did know why I was there. What exactly do our service members think we’re trying to do in Iran? And he then goes through all the different reasons that have been given, you know, get rid
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of the regime, get rid of Kami, degrade their nukes, degrade their ballistic missile program, achieve peace in the Middle East. I mean, I saw Scott Bessant the other day, the Treasury Secretary, who I’m sure is in the same camp as these people, saying to him, “What the earth are you doing?” And he went on television and was asked about these soaring oil prices. And he said, “I think 50 days of temporary price rises is worth it to get 50 years of peace in the Middle East. >> I don’t know whether it’s going to be 30
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days. I don’t know whether it’s going to be 50 days. I don’t know whether it’s going to be a 100 days but to have 50 years the peace in the Middle East. >> The idea that this is taking us to peace in the Middle East because the other thing that nobody’s talking about is what’s happening in Lebanon. We heard a piece in our newsletter last week from the correspondent in the Sunday Times about what’s actually happening in Lebanon. The Israelis are openly briefing that they’re taking the same
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approach to parts of Lebanon that they took in Gaza in Rafa. >> Just wiped the place out. >> Yeah. So in essence, what seems to be happening in Lebanon is a advance to the Latani River. So they will effectively be annexing southern Lebanon, then creating what seems to be a sort of free fire zone right way up above the Latani River right the way to the edge of Siden. So this is recreating Israeli boundaries that uh people were talking about 100 years ago. and they are doing an enormous sort of bait and switch
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where they’re saying this is all the fault of the Lebanese government for failing to control Hezbollah. Right? This is a story going back to the early 1980s. Right? There’s settler violence now happening. >> Horrible. >> But the reason this uh has a bigger ramification is that the fundamental demand from Iran is going to be we will not accept being Gaza or Lebanon. So in these negotiations that they’re trying to do with Trump and through all their intermediaries, what they’re saying is
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yes, we can give up a nuclear program, that’s the one thing, the one kind of win they can give Trump. Although they’re complaining that Trump’s team doesn’t seem to understand the technical specificities. So there’s a real demand actually from the Gulf for the Europeans to get involved and try to act as translators for Wickoff and Kushner to understand what the Iranians try to offer here. they will give up the nuclear program but their conditions are very tough. One of those conditions is
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they don’t want any of these Gulf countries to continue to host US bases which is almost unimaginable for the Gulf countries. But the second thing is not just that the US stops its operations, but that the US undertakes to make Israel stop. Because what they’re not prepared to have >> is a situation which is what they feel Israel did in Gaza, which is a ceasefire or what they did in Lebanon, which is to say, “Oh, we’re suspending hostilities.” But any day when he wants to get out of
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bed in the morning and bomb Iran, he gets to do it with no warning and no justification. >> This piece from this guy, Phil Clay, cuz he’s struggling. He’s sort of going through, well, is it this and is it that? and Rubio said this and Vance said this and I can’t work out what they’re trying to do. And his conclusion, he says that the one rationale that has remained absolutely clear and absolutely consistent throughout is a is a delight particularly for Trump and Hexath in American domination and violence. He
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says power does not grow out of the barrel of a gun. And cruelty is not the same as strength. And a politics built on such such ideas promises ruin, delusion about the limits of our power and a betrayal of the promise of our founding. And there is something when you watch Exodus doing those briefings particularly wraps himself in God and starts reading from the Bible. It is a sense of glorif the glorification of the violence per se. And I think that is why this idea from Besson that this is the
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basis for a some sort of new Middle East peace process is literally for the birds. But these people you’re talking to are these the talks that Britain were partly involved in largely through Jonathan Powell or are these the talks that Trump is referring to in saying that’s where we’ve made progress or are they one and the same thing? >> No, there’s a whole series of separate conversations going on and it’s extremely difficult to coordinate. But the Gulf countries are trying to de
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develop a unified position. They’re very very aware that their biggest threat or they feel it’s not their biggest threat but they feel one of the big threats is divide and rule. The Iranians are trying to do it. They haven’t really struck Qatar in the last two days or Iran. They’re frankly saying Katar and Oman are the good guys. UAE are the bad guys. They’re trying to say you know because Bahrain is >> and where are the Saudis in there? They say, “Well, Saudis, they’ve been hitting
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harder, which is making Saudi very angry and Saudis just >> And where are they on this suggestion?” >> Where are they on this suggestion that the Saudis were quietly happy that this strike happened in that that the Saudis are now denying? I mean, I don’t have any insight into the center of their government. And a lot of this is very centered around Muhammad bin Salman. If they did think that, they’re certainly now denying it because it doesn’t look like such a good idea anymore. They’re
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trying to hold together, though. And what they’re trying to do, I think, is to think about what happens next. The likely scenario, I’m afraid, is the one that you’re spelling out, right, which is that Trump returns to this war and that he’s actually driven by Netanyahu back into this war >> or he’s driven by events >> or he’s driven by >> he’s driven by the Iranians doing something. He he’s driven by a mistake somewhere else. You don’t feel >> that anybody’s in control here. I also
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think there’s an opportunity. I mean, let me try something else on you. Is it impossible do you think for the leaders that we talk about a lot Europe Carney Albanesei uh the new Japanese prime minister Takahichi South Korea is it impossible for them to come up with some joint position and insert themselves more deeply somehow into these negotiations. And the joint position starts from the premise that this war should not have happened. But since it has happened, we now all have to find the ways to bring
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it to an end. And so that means actually calling out Trump. >> Yeah. Well, I think calling out Trump’s very important because I think one of the problems that Star has got himself in is because he didn’t speak clearly. He said, “I wouldn’t participate, but he didn’t speak clearly about his horror and condemnation. He’s allowing himself to be portrayed as a coward as though he’s sort of weasling out of it instead of taking a clear principal position.” But the bigger point I think is a good
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opportunity is that the Gulf countries will be looking for partners after this. >> They’re not partnering with the US in the same way that they did in the past. They can’t. Their view of these US bases has been completely changed from opportunities to risks and they really appreciate what Europe’s done. They’re very grateful. In fact, in many ways they what it’s taught them over the last two weeks is that Europe actually has been quite a reliable security partner. There’s been praise for the UK and its
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its joint air force squadrons. They’re praising what the French have done. They’re praising what the Italians have done. And actually, there are other European countries who’ve done. The Greeks have done stuff helping to defend the Saudis. So, they would really like to come out of this in a world in which they really strengthen. And this goes back to your four cornered thing. They would like to bet on Alex Stobs with a sort of European vision. And so there will be a huge opportunity to say this
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is the moment to reach out to Qatar, Saudi, UAE and bind them more closely into a Canada European South Korean framework. But but but to get there, they’re very very complimentary about Jonathan Pal and what he’s doing. They are horrified by the British foreign office and Iet Cooper. For example, a statement was put out by the British on the straits of form where they didn’t bother to consult with the Gulf before they put out the statement with the result they put out the statement then
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asked these countries to sign up afterwards and found that a couple of the countries would sign up a couple wouldn’t there was no attempt to coordinate. This goes back to my problem from the beginning of this which is if these middle powers of work have worked together they’ve got to coordinate. They’ve got to talk to each other show each other some respect. M you know we talked about Mark Carney who I think is you know was one of the first ones out there and he was he was kind of >> well he was very he sounded pretty pro
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>> sounded quite quite supportive and he’s now in a completely different position saying we’re having nothing to do with this. I just think that maybe there has to be this has to become part of this sort of if we are genuinely going through uh creating a new world order in which America is not a reliable ally in which international rules have to be reought for and redefended. I think it’s very interesting this week for example Richard Herman the attorney general who’s probably the closest thing that
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Kstar must a genuine friend in the government close friend going back years and years and years there’s a piece in one of the papers today and he’s got a big speech this week where he’s absolutely making the case for human rights international law and I don’t know whether the speech is going to mention Trump by name but it’s very very clear what he’s talking about he’s talking about Iran now I think that that is the right position to be in but I think it’s the opportunity to build I
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I’d love it if Karma and maybe got together with I don’t know Mertz and Carney and Albanazi and said let’s have an international conference on what intern what we mean by international >> and the Gulf right I mean I I I don’t want I don’t I don’t want to leave the Gulf out because it’s a miracle over the last 40 years what they’ve done with their countries and they are vital to our security they’re vital to the global economy >> they have so much to contribute they’re
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such important investors in our economy it would be criminal not to include but where I’m worried There are two things. First, the uh the British government would have to be interested in building institutional structures. >> Mhm. >> So actually thinking about how you coordinate and create structures to coordinate >> before rather than doing things ad hoc. Yeah. First thing and that’s that’s I think the question with Jonathan Pal who’s been an incredible national
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security adviser. Can he move from being the firefighter who’s in the negotiations sorting out the things to designing the institutional structure and working out how Britain plays? And secondly, resources, the spending on our diplomats, the spending on our international development, which we’ll get on to in tomorrow’s episode. But >> Britain’s not going to be able to do this, create these institutions, do this soft power >> unless it’s prepared to put some resources behind it. And all the
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evidence unfortunately is that Stalmer both doesn’t think in these big institutional terms. He doesn’t like talking in big abstract vision terms unlike Carney. But secondly, the evidence of the budget suggests he’s not ped up any money behind it. >> I sort of woke up in the middle of the night on this idea. Could we put together a coalition of the sensible? >> Yeah. >> To take on Trump. >> You know, the other thing that’s not >> But you also got to stand up to him. I
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mean, I’m, you know, I was really struck. you you you saw some um people that we both know at the right at the center of our security establishment who said and I was very struck by this when we went off to see the Spanish prime minister that one of them had said to you well what’s going to happen to Spain when they get attacked is America going to help them I then realized that that was exactly what the US secretary of state shouted at the British ambassador Washington when Wilson refused to join
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the Vietnam War this is a very old story >> 55 years of the US saying Unless you come along with our illegal wars, you we’re not going to help you if you’re attacked. >> And the fact that our security establishment is still believing that line, which I thought have been exploded in 1968, tells you an enormous amount about how vulnerable we are to being bullied and our inability to actually say clearly, this is a war crime. This is disgusting. We’re not having anything to do with it.
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Thank you very much. F off. M look I think I I do think I mean you may not have he may have got very little credit for it but I do think Kam has ended up in the right position and it’s interesting I was at a I was at three funerals last week and at one of them this guy who’s a former journalist now retired and he came up to me and he he said God I can’t stand that star I voted for him but honestly really gets on my nerves but I’ll tell you what I’m glad he’s there at the moment. Well, it’s
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definitely true compared to the I mean, I definitely think I felt James Cleverly, the Tory uh former foreign secretary, was on the wrong side of this on tele so far. He can’t decide whether he’s in love with Trump or in love with Putin. He’s all over the place. >> No, I I I think some is much closer to where he should be, which language, but I think he could be much clearer. And if he talked more about values and explained why he’s not there, it would be much easier to build these coalition
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given he is a lawyer, I’d quite like to hear him make the speech that Richard Herman’s making. My final point before we go to a break, uh, the environment. 5 million tons of CO2 equivalent has been put into the atmosphere by the military activity so far. I think this is the bit that always gets lost in you got those raging fires going on. So anyway, I think we’re in violent agreement here, Roy, that Donald Trump has made a complete ass of this and uh he’s tacked, as they say. We want him in this case to
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back out. In a lot of these situations, we want him to back out. And this taunting him >> every time he threatens tariffs or threatens to go into Greenland or is bombing Iran and says he’s chickening out when he changes direction is really dangerous because the one thing that drives this guy is vanity and ego. >> He would have absolutely hated the clip. Did you see the clip by a gentleman from the name of Ibrahim Zulfagari who is the official spokesman for the IRGC? You know, Trump, you’re fired. You’re
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familiar with this sentence. Thank you for your attention to this matter. I think a bit of that doesn’t do any harm with Trump. >> Yeah. I I think let’s just just finish on the final thing, which is this is probably the most dangerous moment we’ve had for many many decades. We are very close now to a serious global financial problem. >> We are very very close to a wider conflict driving towards third world war stuff. We have leaders in Israel and in Iran and in the United States who find
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it very very difficult to come to any kind of compromise. Have a very absolutist narcissistic worldview. >> They’re nationalists of a very extreme sort. All the likelihood, as you say, unfortunately, is that we may lurch back into this and then it will deepen, right? The conflict will deepen because we’ll start going deeper after desalination or widen because they’ll start hitting more and more critical infrastructure. And our only hope is that for some reason Trump manages to
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declare victory and go home. And then we have to make sure that peace remains, that Israel doesn’t start it again, and that the Gulf and Europe create the institutional frameworks for peace. But that’s a hell of a hell of a Well, I was talking to a member of a European, not British intelligence agency and I said, “Do do you think this is potential world war territory and he said, I think we might be in it and I think there’s a very very that’s my worry at the moment is is is this
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thing doesn’t feel there’s not enough goodwill. There’s not enough expertise. is there’s enough people and and who who have the capacity to get this to a better place and Trump and and do you know what you said about the Vance Rubio Kushner Wickoff all thinking that he’s wrong. I mean it’s just pathetic. It’s pathetic if between them they cannot get this into a better place. >> And it still turns out that he seems to be right when he says MAGA is him. That 80% of Maggas still seem to be on his
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side on this. >> This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Spring is the season of movement. Travel, shared networks, systems that aren’t ours. When you operate inside infrastructure you don’t control, your vulnerability increases. >> Mobility increases exposure. A cyber attack happens every 39 seconds. In the UK, hundreds of cyber enabled crimes are reported daily with around4.5 million pounds lost each day to cyber crime. Frictionless systems tend to hide their weaknesses. bank details, passwords,
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boarding passes, sensitive data moving across networks we don’t control. >> So that’s why we’ve been using our friends over at NordVPN since it encrypts your connection, making your data far harder to intercept. It hides your IP address, reduces your digital footprint, and keeps your personal details secure. >> To get the best discount on your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/resterspolitics. You’ll get four extra months free on the 2-year plan, plus a 30-day money back
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guarantee. The links in the episode description. Now, Roy, the last time we talked about assisted dying, we broadly disagreed. I am in favor of Chem Lead Beater’s assisted dying bill. You were against largely because of your fear that people might be coerced. >> Yeah. Um, now I think a lot of those concerns have been addressed in the bill as it’s gone through the House of Commons, but I’m more interested in what’s happening in the in the House of Lords because I think it’s an absolute
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abomination what is going on there. So, and I think now this bill is dead. It’s not going to happen because what’s happened and and there were major changes made as it went through the the elected chamber and it’s now going to fail because of the tactics in the lords which I think will damage the lords and it’s already very very low reputation. So just on the process it’s got to complete all stages in parliament by the end of April. Okay. It can only be considered in the Lords on a Friday
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because it’s a private members bill. There are only two Fridays left. It’s had 12 days of committee and it’s only got to clause five of 60 clauses in the bill. >> And and I think the Labour whip in the House of Lords has said, “Forget it. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen.” Yeah. >> And and one of the reasons is that its opponents put down over a thousand amendments and it’s taken so long because Lord’s procedure requires that every amendment has to be
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debated if it is not withdrawn and because the opponents have been filibustering, talking endlessly, making the same points again and again and again. I I know you said when we were before the break that it was um that it was conservative opponents, but I’ve noticed even people like Dian Abbott are against there are no listen, I’m not saying it’s I I think the I think the organiz this has been organized. Okay, >> you won’t be surprised to know that one of the chief organizers of this whole
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thing is the current editor of the the spectator, Lord Gove. >> Lord Gove is very worried about this, is he? Well, I thought he was a very liberal wig who didn’t particularly care about these >> how it was described to me and if I’m wrong, Michael, you can come on and explain yourself. I’ve not talked to Michael G about this, but how his position is presented to me by people who have is not that bothered about the issue. He’s not sort of it’s not one of those issues that he’s going to go to
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the barricades for the issue of assisted dying, but that he is very much in favor of the whole filibustering and the approach that they’re taking to kill the bill. Why? Because Michael go loves being at the center of political drama. I’m I’m I’m slightly surprised by this whole thing because I I can see a particular kind of old-fashioned religious Tory um feeling that there are strong religious or traditional oppositions but Michael go I never really saw in that category. >> So so if you look at all these people
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all of these hundreds of amendments 56% have been put down by eight peers. Okay, the top three are Baroness Finley of Klandaf who I think is a crossbencher followed by Theresa Coffee who was the ludicrously the deputy prime minister under the ludicrous Liz Truss and then the former par athlete Tanny Gay Thompson all very strong opponents and okay and one can respect their their views. So these eight peers have put down 56% just to give you a flavor of some of them. So, there’s one down that
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everybody should have a pregnancy test before being allowed to have an assisted death, including men over 60. Don’t ask me how that’s going to work, but that is an amendment which clearly has to be debated. You the death has to be filmed. Don’t ask me. You should only be allowed an assisted death if you satisfy a panel of seven professionals, and if they disagree, you have to satisfy the high court. Now, the bill has had more than enough time to get through because it by the time it’s this is all over, it will
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had 16 days of debate, over 100 hours, way more than most bills get in the Lords and more than it had in the commons where a lot of changes were made. So, these poor laws have been getting dragged in night after night to listen to speeches by I’ll give you the main offenders on the speaking front. Mark Harper, remember him? >> I do remember Harper. Tory chief whip lost his seat gets bunged into the House of Lords as a consolation. He’s been making dozens of speech. Sheila Lawler know her right-wing think tank stuck in
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the House of Lords by Boris Johnson. Cla Fox, right-wing libertarian stuck in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson. >> Presumably, this isn’t some great piece of Kem Benox Conservative Party strategy. >> I don’t know. I don’t know. >> It wouldn’t really sit like that. This is a private members bill. It’s not Labor legislation. It’s a private members bill about the dying. This is a small group of people I think >> who have decided and I wonder if part of
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it is the religization of our politics to some extent who have decided they’re just going to stop this bill. Now they may have they may have very strong views and they may have good reasons and they may have principles that’s all fine but when it’s gone through the commons in the way that it’s gone and when it is then going through the lords and it is that you literally have people standing up making the same speech that they made before and the difference with the lords and the commons the speaker doesn’t have
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that function to tell people to shut up yeah >> or that it’s repetitive you can stand up and talk for as long as you want >> so um >> that’s what they’ve done >> because there no time limits in the laws I think there are time limits >> there time limits but then you just get Theresa stands up Mark Harper stands up then cla stands up and they just pop up all night. >> One thing listeners need to understand is this is a private members bill. It’s
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not a bill which the Labor government got behind. It’s not in its manifesto. So if the government was behind the bill >> and it was part of manifesto commitment. It would have to go through the House of Lords and Parliament Act. >> Yeah. >> And if the government really wanted to get behind it, they can force this through the House of Lords. They’ve chosen not to for perfectly honorable reasons. which is they’ve decided this is a question of conscience and in fact the
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Labour cabinet split on it where streeting voted against others voted in favor >> and the opposition from the house of commons I think they won by 31 votes so it’s relatively close in the house comes so constitutionally this is the type of bill which the house of lords has the constitutional ability if it wants to block the question is should it right now I suppose I want to move it from the are you are you confident that you can distinguish your personal views on the from your constitutional views. For
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example, what was your view when during Brexit the House of Lords was buggering around and putting in lots of amendments to try to stop the House of Commons vote on Brexit? >> Uh, I probably was thinking, yeah, let’s keep the debate going. But I think, no, I think I am prepar I think I am able to separate it because I think that this is a bill that’s now gone through every stage in the Commons. It has been substantially amended. So, for example, your worry about coercion. >> Mhm. The measures in the bill now on
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coercion are stronger than in any country that has assisted dying. The the the costs element to the national health service which I think are way exaggerated including I’m afraid by west treating I think if you look at other countries where this has happened there’s not been that cost and the debate the the other big debate that pushed all the time is we should be focusing much more on paliotative care. The evidence of where assisted dying is now happening is that because it means people are talking more about death that
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palative care services have improved alongside it. >> So I think it’s a good argument for always for institutional reform the house lords uh famously the one thing I liked about the house lords which is the hereditary peers have been thrown out. So there’s nothing really left. >> Why do you like that? >> What’s the only reason for it? What was the house lord? It’s called a house lords for goodness sake. I mean what is it? It was a historical traditional inheritance. It was like the monarchy.
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It’s just part of our whole heritage. >> But I don’t know if you know this, Roy, but the monarchy was removed from political power. Do you remember that? >> Well, it still has some sort of >> soft a lot of soft power. >> Um, so no, I can’t see the point at all of a house of a bunch of retired politicians. I would like to see something that was much more like the crossbenches and I’d like to see it appointed and a proper scrutiny and genuine. >> Come on then. Tell me tell me a great
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thing that the House of Lords has achieved in the last 5 years. Well, I think what it does well is it escapes some of the party political stuff and it scrutinizes things more carefully. So, during my whole time in the House of Commons, and I I was um I remember being attacked by Chris Bryant about this. He said to me, you know, I can’t believe the honorable member is defending the House of Lords on the grounds that it’s got more geopolitical expertise than, you know, the honorable member has geopolitical expertise,
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right? The quality of debate about geopolitics and strategy in the laws >> in the comments was so much agree it’s better in the laws. I agree with that. >> If you want to talk about war, defense, Iran, you want to be reading the speeches because it’s got ambassadors and generals and spy chiefs and security chiefs and >> but that’s what it should focus on, not a bunch of politicians. Well, so what is it supposed to do? It’s supposed to be scrutiny. >> Yeah. long-term thinking, consequences,
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deliberation, >> and and and I guess our compromise is the government, if it really wants to do something, can force stuff through. >> And if he doesn’t want to get behind it, >> well, it doesn’t want to get behind it. I mean, why is Salmon not getting behind this? If he wants to get behind it, he can get it through the laws. >> No, listen, he could. And and I’m hoping >> that actually as I think this will once this thing finally dies, I think there will be a reaction against it. And I
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think whether the government picks it up, the government can do things. is this the sort of constitutional nicities can go back. This thing still can be revived but it won’t be revived anytime soon. So I agree with you think the government could get behind it or might I suggest Rory that this is a classic example of where when you’ve had the commons vote for it, you then say let’s have a people’s assembly or citizens assembly on this >> citizens assembly. >> Classic. This is the sort of thing it
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should be used for. >> Citizens assembly. I love it. >> If you’re looking >> citizens assembly is the third chamber. I’m with you. But institutional redesign, I mean, I’m I’m with >> I was I was thinking more of a second chamber before it needs to go to thousand laws. But let me tell you this. If you’re you saying it should be there for sort of long-term thinking and strategic and all this >> moral hazard technical >> if you’re if you’re asking me to put
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together the John Paul George Ringo of forward thinking on strategy I am not picking Mark Harper uh Theresa Coffee Sheila Lawler of the in one of those ghastly Tuftton Street think tanks or dare I say Cla Fox. >> Very good. Very good. Listen >> so I am furious about this damn thing. I I’m look I’m not defending the hustler current thing. I think the bit of it that I like basically are the crossbenches. >> But do you still agree? Would you still vote against it if this went back to the
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commons and you were still an MP or do you not think that actually the the the the measures that have been put into it in the as it went through all its stages actually have strengthened it substantially? Because I do >> um I think that the you’re absolutely right. It strengthened it substantially. It seems to be now better than Netherlands, Belgium, Canada where there seems to be a rapid extension. And I think the last stats I saw in one of those countries is almost one in 20 deaths has now assisted dying in one of
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those countries. So I I believe this might have been more like an Oregon model. >> Mhm. >> They’re trying to contain it more. >> The numbers the numbers who went to Switzerland last year have gone up, you know. I think I think we’ve ended up in a terrible place because it’s a >> it’s a ridiculous institution. >> Yeah. Well, I I think >> Yeah, we’ll take that as No, >> I I I think it’s one of these horrible things where um somebody in there will
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be definitely cases of people in really really miserable situations. And I’ve always been supportive, I think, and this is probably where people like me get in trouble, of um doctors in effect helping people to to die when things have got too bad. I mean, I think, you know, people I think doctors were always expected, weren’t they? >> Yeah. >> Decades ago, to put a bit of extra morphine in, etc. So, I think the idea that you let people go when they’re on their last sex and you don’t make them
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go through unnecessary agony makes sense to me. M >> um I think creating a whole legal framework where and this is where I slightly agree with Dian Abbott, poorer, more vulnerable people. Now, I’m sure the people who did this bill will explain why it won’t affect them, but um I I I I still can’t bear the idea that someone might say I don’t want to be a burden and you know, maybe I so that’s where I am. >> Right. There we are. Ju just on on this um subject by the way um Tessa Jao much
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loved much lamented her daughter Jess has written a really fabulous book about Tessa and about their relationship Jess was her family was starting as Tessa was dying so it’s all that sort of sense of of life and uh and love and what have you but I just sort of had I just texted Jess and said what would your mom be voting on this assisted dying bill I assumed it would be in favor. >> But I just wanted to check with Jess. So Jess is actually going to do an interview with our newsletter.
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>> Um talking about these themes, big themes of loss and love and life and death. >> Let me just finish my final pretentious comment, which is that one of the things that’s connecting these themes is the question of how do governments deal with complicated issues? And you were talking about how everything seems to be in an incredible hurry in Iran and lack of thought and how do you design institutions that get the balance right? How do you make sure you get the proper amount of scrutiny but you don’t end up
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in what the populists sometimes complain about with reason which is too much process, too much filibustering, too much people getting in the way of making decisions and getting things done. And I think it doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about Iran or whether we’re talking about a sister dying or whether we go on to talk about international aid or immigration in Australia. We’re really struggling to develop political systems which get the right balance between getting on with stuff
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>> and having proper care thoughtful process and accepting that the whole point about our democracies is we disagree and we need to create structures which hold this very weird thing in play which is that >> you and I can disagree about a lot of stuff and the whole point about our democracy is institutions where we accept >> that sometimes I lose sometimes you lose and we move on But, you know, then you have somebody like Trump who literally believes that it should all be done by
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him signing a signature. And that road lies some of the mess that we’re that we’re in now. And by the way, I know I’m be slightly living in my head, but his reaction to Robert Müller’s death, long-term public servant who yes, he and he he did the report on Russian influence on Trump in his first election campaign and he died and Trump’s reaction was, “I’m glad he’s dead.” I mean that is there are there are some people who I’ve crossed with in the past who when they die I won’t say anything.
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>> Yeah. But you don’t say good >> but I’m not going to say I’m really glad they’re dead. I think that reveals a really horrible human being. And then when Scott Besson was asked about this in this interview you were quoting >> he refused I think three times to say that Trump was wrong to celebrate the death Republican politician has condemned it and just go back to Charlie Kurt’s death when if you didn’t say this guy’s a hero then we’re talking about
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throwing you in jail. I mean this is one sick up country I’m afraid. Right. Question time soon tomorrow. In question time tomorrow, we’re going to return to some of our biggest issues of our age. So, we’re going to look at this whole question about how you get defense and international development balanced. In particular, what’s happening in the UK where we have cut international development to the bone. We’re going to talk about the extraordinary victory of your friend and a man who’s becoming one
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of my great heroes, Peter Malinoscus, premier of South Australia, who’s just won an extraordinary election, but which is also revealed that Australian politics sadly beginning to look a bit more like British politics >> with the right splitting between a farright and a less successful right. And we’re also going to be talking about uh possibly rejoining the European Union, King Charles footpath, and we’ve got some lighter and rather fun curveball questions to come. >> See you then.
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>> See you then.